Mix bus level for master

[Face Valid]

I'm interested to hear people's approach to finalising a mix and what volume they aim for in terms of RMS / LUFS.
I appreciate the topic is done to death but I feel like I have a knowledge gap somewhere.
I use Voxengo span, and measure loudness in RMS. I usually get to around 17/18 RMS and peaks very close to 0db, like -3 or -2.
I hear people say they aim for around 12 RMS on the master but I can't get this unless I add on about 3 - 4 db of gain reduction on a limiter which is bad and don't want to.
No matter what I try and can't seem to change this. I have had a bit of success with using a limiter on the drum bus because my snare transients are always high.
Just wondered what people's workflow is and how they approach? Apart from the realisation that my snare transients are too harsh I'm happy with the fidelity of my mixes but compared to others I hear they are a lot quieter.

 

[YannFer]

My life changed when I started to use Izotope Ozone.
Now, I only throw it on the stereo out and let the master assitant do his thing...
It places the EQ cuts and peaks to make the final limiter transparent. Works like a charm.
My playback system is useless for proper mastering tasks anyway.

I'll have a look on the meters if you want, next time I finish something.

 

[crosstevsky]

Yeah Izotope Ozone helps a lot with quick master...

 

[Face Valid]

Thanks @YannFer and @crosstevsky. Might go for it. Was thinking either that or Levels VST. Happy to go with Ozone if if can understand it! The multi band stuff can be a bit confusing.

 

[2GooD Productions]

-3 to 4db gain reduction isnt bad, why do you think it is. When using compression on the master bus I find its best to have slow attack and fast release with up to around 6db gain reduction and a low 2 to 1 ratio to 4 to 1 ratio, for more gain reduction I will chain compressors in series so one doesnt have to do all the work. The secret to a loud master is the crest factor, try to get as low a crest factor as possible using span as a guide. Cut your unnecessary lows, below 20-30hz on sub bass and below 50hz on bass. Snares often go into the low end, so I usually cut below 100hz on them too. Cut above 4k on the kicks and the basses, unless you want a full spectrum bass sound which is often the case with distorted 808's and distorted bass sounds, using saturation for full effect. Cut uneccessary highs beyond the audible range also, this takes away any unnecessary energy that will take away from the loud audible mix. A great alternative to compression and multiband compression is dynamic EQ, which comes as part of ozone and helps create more transparent cutting of unwanted frequencies at key times. I use the waves F6 for this, and the C4 or C6 for multiband compression. I often have -6db gain reduction on my limiter, but try not to go much over it. I aim for -14db RMS and -1db Peak for streaming masters like Youtube, spotify etc. I aim for -9db RMS and -0.4db Peak for CD masters.

 

[Face Valid]

-3 to 4db gain reduction isnt bad, why do you think it is. When using compression on the master bus I find its best to have slow attack and fast release with up to around 6db gain reduction and a low 2 to 1 ratio to 4 to 1 ratio, for more gain reduction I will chain compressors in series so one doesnt have to do all the work. The secret to a loud master is the crest factor, try to get as low a crest factor as possible using span as a guide. Cut your unnecessary lows, below 20-30hz on sub bass and below 50hz on bass. Snares often go into the low end, so I usually cut below 100hz on them too. Cut above 4k on the kicks and the basses, unless you want a full spectrum bass sound which is often the case with distorted 808's and distorted bass sounds, using saturation for full effect. Cut uneccessary highs beyond the audible range also, this takes away any unnecessary energy that will take away from the loud audible mix. A great alternative to compression and multiband compression is dynamic EQ, which comes as part of ozone and helps create more transparent cutting of unwanted frequencies at key times. I use the waves F6 for this, and the C4 or C6 for multiband compression. I often have -6db gain reduction on my limiter, but try not to go much over it. I aim for -14db RMS and -1db Peak for streaming masters like Youtube, spotify etc. I aim for -9db RMS and -0.4db Peak for CD masters.

Thanks for the really detailed answer. 'People' say that that much gain reduction is bad because the limiter can start to introduce harmonic distortion. Sometimes you can hear it other times you get away with it. I guess I just feel like relying on the limiter so heavily shouldn't be right. Your tips are really good, most I do but I think the crest factor thing is where I've been going wrong as I have been too lax on transients. Also only recently have I been experimenting with serial compression but I think I can do more here. Just bought Ozone as it was reduced from $250 to $99 for some special offer - good timing! I hear you mention waves...I use their Paz analyser and for some reason the RMS reading is always 2 -3 db different than Span. Like span will be at -18db and Paz will say -15db - have no idea why.

 

[Iron Keys]

Harmomic distortion isn't necessarily bad on a master.

You probably more want transparency for doing surgical eq .

 

[Face Valid]

Harmomic distortion isn't necessarily bad on a master.

You probably more want transparency for doing surgical eq .

Yeah a bit isn't. I guess I mean more when you can hear that audible pumping and the dynamics start to sound messed up.

 

[Iron Keys]

Yeah a bit isn't. I guess I mean more when you can hear that audible pumping and the dynamics start to sound messed up.

Yeah that's annoying. Fyi i largely face the same problem you do with this.

I've tried tonne of different ways, nothing seems to work. Was gonna buy ozone but not keen on its aesthetics, and also it costsa lot. Was gonna get the standard on sale butfeel like I'd be missingout on advanced soo.

 

[Face Valid]

Yeah that's annoying. Fyi i largely face the same problem you do with this.

I've tried tonne of different ways, nothing seems to work. Was gonna buy ozone but not keen on its aesthetics, and also it costsa lot. Was gonna get the standard on sale butfeel like I'd be missingout on advanced soo

Glad to hear I'm not the only one! So I've just opened up Ozone 9 for the first time, got to say I'm liking it so far. I didn't realise it had EQ, comp and saturation all in one place. I've just got my track sitting at -12RMS and verified it with Span. With around -3db gain reduction. The visual feedback seems pretty good.
Other things I've done this time is added in saturation and got it to soften the peaks on the track, and put a limiter onto drum, bass and instrument busses to manage dynamics.
Looking forward to dropping this badboy in Beat this!

 

[Iron Keys]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one! So I've just opened up Ozone 9 for the first time, got to say I'm liking it so far. I didn't realise it had EQ, comp and saturation all in one place. I've just got my track sitting at -12RMS and verified it with Span. With around -3db gain reduction. The visual feedback seems pretty good.
Other things I've done this time is added in saturation and got it to soften the peaks on the track, and put a limiter onto drum, bass and instrument busses to manage dynamics.
Looking forward to dropping this badboy in Beat this!

guys, guys, we should have waited until after Beat This to give him advice! Quick, everyone drop your worst mastering advice!!

 

[Face Valid]

guys, guys, we should have waited until after Beat This to give him advice! Quick, everyone drop your worst mastering advice!!

Too late suckers!

 

[Iron Keys]

Aim for 24.3dB gain reduction on your master limiter then a compressor after that with 3.8 gain reduction and a slow attack just after. Some also add a scoop of saturation after this too.

It's a special trick top mastering engineers use all the time, it might sound mad to you at first because your ears wont have adjusted but to everyone else it'll sound dope...

Spoiler: Discaimer

may or may not just be trying to sabotage your beat this entry...

 

[2GooD Productions]

guys, guys, we should have waited until after Beat This to give him advice! Quick, everyone drop your worst mastering advice!!

Putting hall reverb on the master bus at around 80% really brings the track to life. Speaking of reverb, ALWAYS add reverb to your basslines and kick drums. Theres this thing called phasing, dont worry about it.

 

[Face Valid]

Thanks guys for the pro tips...I'm gonna be mixing like Quincy Jones in no time!